We Get (More) Necronomicon Comments

In response to my last post on Necronomicon comments, I received several more Necronomicon comments, including the following question from Warlock Asylum:

Then you you have people who try to prove that the Necronomicon is not real and they do this in an environment where most of the predominant religions are responsible for the deaths of millions of people. Yet the Necronomicon is accussed of being dangerous but have you ever looked at the history of Judaic, Christian, and Islamic faiths?  All of these religions had to resort to killing thousands of people in order to establish their belief system. Yet people from among these population will discuss the Necronomicon as if it is a bad thing, and that’s a little hypocritical!

For my part, I see nothing wrong in picking out the Necronomicon for critique over other faiths.  First, I find it more interesting than the history of other religions, and much of the controversy over these faiths has been rehashed considerably while the Necronomicon debate is on a much smaller scale.  Second, it would be nice to actually catch one of a belief system with dangerous aspects in its nascent stages, so we can soften those elements and don’t have to sort it all out later.

Plus, its defenders do have a tendency to engage in hyperbole:

What I can’t understand, in view of what has been stated, why can’t people just let those who work with the Necronomicon, work with. it’s always this hint of sarcasm.

I hate to break it to you, Warlock, but so long as the Dan Harms Machine is coming over with clubs and lawn flamingos, nobody is stopping you from working with the Necronomicon.  Besides, it’s a little odd to hear Gatewalkers proclaim they have transcended the terrors of the outer spheres and the minions of the Ancient Ones, with their only fear that somebody, somewhere on the Internet, might be using sarcasm on them.

Published in: on August 25, 2009 at 10:46 pm  Comments (22)  

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  1. Considering the sheer number of sites out there debunking Scientology or Mormonism (let alone criticizing older and more established religions like Islam, Christianity, Judaism, or Buddhism), I think Simonian Necronomiconism is getting off rather lightly. Hell, Cthulhu’s a part of the SubGenius pantheon and you can buy plush dolls of him; isn’t that far more distressing than someone simply considering the evidence about the origins of the Necronomicon? If you consider the ‘Cult of Cthulhu’ a parody religion a la Bob Dobbsism, that would distress me far more personally. But then again, I was born a snake handler and I’ll die a snake handler.

  2. I just read The Necronomion Files over the weekend (still waiting for the Simon Necronomicon to show up in my mailbox) and very much enjoyed the chapters you wrote, Mr. Harms. Not buttering you up or anything. It’s the truth. I was surprised how interesting and funny something so potentially dry could be.

    I was puzzled by some of the stuff written by your colleague, though, like repeated remarks that the Abramelin operation will drive a person crazy. I am in month four of the 18-month version, and so far I have found it to be very powerful in a positive way. I guess that is the part that comes just before the craziness.:)

    I didn’t think the idea that the Necronomicon can be blamed even partly for people who decide to kill others was very compelling. People say this about movies all the time. If it were stamped with “This is a big fat fake” on the front, it would not stop the “monkey see, monkey do” crowd. I am way more scared of people who believe the US is being turned into a socialist country.

    However, I do not believe that the Necronomicon is being picked on either. Quite the contrary. IME, people just ignore it because they think it’s bogus.

  3. […] For those of us who are regular readers of the Page I am sure that you more than familiar with the debates that have been staged between Dan Harms and myself. I am sure that many of our readers may at times wonder why these debates have continued? And what is the purpose of these debates? Initially, I thought it would be a good idea since most of the Simon Necronomicon debunkers echo the thesis that Dan Harms has presented in his wonderful work-the Necronomicon Files.  I am sure that Dan harms could make more money for copyright infringements due to the copied information from his book that appears across numerous websites, than from the sales of the book itself. Its good to see that Harms has influenced so many people, but it is also sad that people are so dis empowered that they cannot formulate there own thesis. Yet I must admit on the opposite side of the coin, that GateWalker should be active in creating resources  to share their experiences. If people who are not working with the grimoire can fund websites to bash the Simon Necronomicon system, then why can’t GateWalkers do the same thing for those who support the Simon Necronomicon System? This is just my opinion. Sometimes an offering is best made to a god/goddess  by investing money in a virtual Temple that is formed by the Practitioner and in so doing their work aids in helping people understand how the system works. The Dan Harms Machine  has started its engine again by making a response to comment I made on a previous post, which can be seen here […]

  4. I guess that followers of the Dan Harms Machine can now see for themselves what his machine is really made of:

    http://warlockasylum.wordpress.com/2009/08/26/the-dan-harms-machine-starts-again/

  5. Oh quit being silly.

  6. It would be a great thing for you, Mr. Warlockasylum, if you were indeed being persecuted, because it would imply that you are important and influential enough to be a threat to someone. But that’s the thing. Folks who are into the Necronomicon as a means of worship or method of magical practice are isignificant in the magical world due to tiny numbers and frankly a noted inability to express themselves well. That doesn’t mean you have no value–everyone has value, and if people want to take a made-up book and use it for a grimoire, it’s no skin off my back–but it also means that the likelihood that anyone is cooking up any kind of conspiracy against you is zip. That you think there IS some kind of conspiracy indicates how little value working with this version of the Necronomicon as a grimoire actually has, because you are looking at the world and seeing nothing but your own wishes.

    You are misinformed about collecting money for copyright violation online. For that to happen, the violator has to be taken to court, the plaintiff has to win, the jury or judge has to decide the award, that award has to exceed to cost of bringing the action, and the plaintiff has to be able to actually collect the award. So you are completely wrong on that score as well. I know this from my own experience.

  7. Thanks for your insights Mr. Harold Roth. I appreciate every word you said. First, I am aware of the copyright process. I made the statement to illustrate a point. It was not to be taken in a literal context.

    Secondly, I am not concerned about the views that people have concerning the Simon Necronomicon, but if they have taken the time to comment about these things online and critic a work, myself as a Practitioner, may critic some of their views. I actually enjoy speaking with Harms. Its not personal our differences.

    I do agree with your statement that people working with the ZSimon Necronomicon need to express themselves better. I think I mentioned that in my post as well, though not in the same way. My question you is that if the Simon Necronomicon is just a made-up book, why is there all the fuss to begin with? Also I know that most “grimoires” are made-up? Though nobody is legally throwing people in the fire for buying a book printed by Avon, it seems that most of the comments you find on the net is a sort of verbal bashing, unlike all the other made-up grimoires. Why is that Mister Harold Roth? I’m sure that Harms and yourself will be up studying tonite. Don’t take it personal and thanks for your comments!

  8. BTW-nice blog page Mister Harold Roth🙂

  9. Re copyright, you stated that Mr. Harms would be making money from copyright violations. You were wrong about that. It has nothing to do with your context.

    Re why the fuss about the Necronomicon, I don’t know that there is any fuss. If you’re referring to some blog entries and to the Necronomicon Files book, IMO that is because of the interest in Lovecraft, not any interest in the Necronomicon as a magical work. Those are two separate things. I have been around magic for a while, and the interest in the Necronomicon in the magical community is pretty much non-existent. The majority of magical practitioners I run across aren’t even interested in grimoires of any kind, much less a made up one.

    Most grimoires are made up in the sense that they are created by human beings and not by the individuals cited as their authors (like King Solomon or Moses). The difference is that real grimoires have a history of praxis behind them and for the most part, they keep faith with the reader. IOW, the author did his best to give the reader actual magical rituals that either he had tried or knew to have been tried and that had some possibility of success. In magic more than anywhere else, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If the magic doesn’t work, then claims about the magical practice mean nothing. The grimoires have a history of hundreds of years of actual working magic behind them. With the Necronomicon, here’s this book that so many people have bought and yet where’s the magic? There isn’t any. It doesn’t work as a grimoire.

    But it’s also dishonest as a magical text, because it was not created to be one, but simply as a way to make some money and perhaps have some fun and gain some notoriety. I do not believe the argument that it is a magical pipe bomb. I think it is more a magical water pistol, the kind that leaks all over you and makes you feel foolish later.

    To me, the Necronomicon is a lot like the Black Pullet, which is a supposedly real grimoire. Now, I know there are people who get magic out of the Black Pullet. Good for them. But like the Necronomicon, it is pretty clear from looking at it that the Black Pullet was written as a way to make money off gullible people who bought the book thinking they were going to get the power it promised them. Did they? I can’t say I have heard of anyone. That’s not proof, but then, there is no proof.

    Like I said, if you get it to work for you, fine. People can get comic books to work as magical texts. Why anyone would want to work with a text like that when they can work with texts that were designed to be magical I don’t know. Seems like a waste of time to me. If you want to learn how to drive, you don’t turn on the TV.

    I have to go study now. Sorry.

  10. I think that your are stepping in waters beyond your comprehension now. I was joking with Harms about the copyright thing. Second of all, why are you debating the origin of what a real grimoire is or isn’t? And how is that determined? Many people study Enochian Magick, myself included, yet some have claimed it could be sketchy due to John Dee’s life history. Dan Harms himself admitted that the Simon Necronomicon is a grimoire, so that was never the issue of debate. Pay Attention! Harms’ issue is that it is not the Necronomicon that Lovecraft wrote about! Here are his exact words:

    “For my part, I do consider the Necronomicon a grimoire, and that it does include genuine Sumerian lore. It’s the parts that aren’t that are problematic. I have to say, I’m baffled as to why anyone would use what Simon himself says is a Greek manuscript written half a millennium after the Sumerian language became extinct to complete Crowley’s charge to reconstruct the Sumerian tradition. There have been hundreds, even thousands, of books written on Mesopotamian civilization in the last century alone, with numerous translations of primary documents. We even know a great deal about their magic, though I still haven’t seen a new translation of Maqlu…

    Perhaps this could be addressed in a post?

    As to “stalking” Simon, if you mean “asking him questions in public forums when he asks for them,” I’m guilty as charged.

    Best of luck!
    For my part, I do consider the Necronomicon a grimoire, and that it does include genuine Sumerian lore. It’s the parts that aren’t that are problematic. I have to say, I’m baffled as to why anyone would use what Simon himself says is a Greek manuscript written half a millennium after the Sumerian language became extinct to complete Crowley’s charge to reconstruct the Sumerian tradition. There have been hundreds, even thousands, of books written on Mesopotamian civilization in the last century alone, with numerous translations of primary documents. We even know a great deal about their magic, though I still haven’t seen a new translation of Maqlu… Perhaps this could be addressed in a post? As to “stalking” Simon, if you mean “asking him questions in public forums when he asks for them,” I’m guilty as charged. Best of luck!
    danharms@earthlink.net
    danharms
    https://danharms.wordpress.com/
    1
    Approve”

    Haven’t you learn Mister Harold Roth not to interfere with family in the middle of an argument?!!! All grimoires and scripture is based on fiction because fiction stands outside of the realms of time where the divine exits.

    Now finish your homework!

  11. I might just have to write a post to respond to the statements that your making just so that anyone doesn’t take you seriously. Now lets look at what you just stated:

    “Most grimoires are made up in the sense that they are created by human beings and not by the individuals cited as their authors (like King Solomon or Moses). The difference is that real grimoires have a history of praxis behind them and for the most part, they keep faith with the reader. IOW, the author did his best to give the reader actual magical rituals that either he had tried or knew to have been tried and that had some possibility of success. In magic more than anywhere else, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If the magic doesn’t work, then claims about the magical practice mean nothing. The grimoires have a history of hundreds of years of actual working magic behind them. With the Necronomicon, here’s this book that so many people have bought and yet where’s the magic? There isn’t any. It doesn’t work as a grimoire.”

    Now could you provide both my readers and those of the Dan Harms Machine proof of this? Because I can sho you were some of the spells that are mentioned in the Simon Necronomicon were practiced for hundreds of years before the Simon Necronomicon appeared, but can you show us where this has happened with other grimoires?

    For exampl, can you show us how Enochian Magick, the Key of Solomon, or the Black Pullet was practiced long before these grimoires put in print? Because I have the evidence in the Simon Necronomicon’s case. I look forward to what develops when your homework is finished Mister Harold Roth

  12. Warlock,

    I think Harold and I define grimoire in different ways, so my statement about it really doesn’t apply to the debate.

    As for the Simon book’s efficacy – I don’t pass judgment on it. Nonetheless, I don’t see that it adds anything to the spirituality of humanity that hasn’t been there before. If it weren’t around – which I’m not advocating, BTW – people would likely gravitate toward a belief system they found equally fulfilling. That’s just what people do.

    As for the ancient nature of the magic – I think there’s very little magic in the Simon book that’s actually ancient AND used in the ways and context it was originally intended. Even Maqlu, which is likely the most authentic piece therein, is chopped-up bits of a much more involved ritual. The only piece I can think of that might be authentic is the pomegranate ritual to Ishtar.

  13. Point well taken Harms! However, I must ask you how can you give a spiritual value to a system if you have never tried it?

  14. “Second of all, why are you debating the origin of what a real grimoire is or isn’t?”

    Because you brought it up as your argument.

    As for providing proof that the stuff in the Necronomicon works, that is your job, not mine, because you are the one who is saying that it works. I have said that I have not seen one shred of evidence that it does work and further, that pretty much no one in the magical community uses it because they think it’s bogus. I think in nine years I have spoken to one person who was actually sincerely trying to make it work. One person out of the literally thousands of magical workers I have spoken to during that time as part of my business. Whether the Necronomicon contains bits and bobs taken from some Edwardian book on Sumerian magic doesn’t prove that it works as a magical system. Like I said, in magic, the proof is in the doing, not in the claims. So if you are certain that this book really works as a grimoire, then I would like to hear what you personally have accomplished magically through using it. Or if you are shy, then what any real person has actually accomplished magically through using it.

  15. Here is one example of aomwone who is familiar with the history:

    http://warlockasylum.wordpress.com/interview-with-denny-sargent-a-friend-of-the-authors-of-the-simon-necronomicon/

    I think you should read it. Second of all, the Simon Necronomicon has been one of the largest selling grimoires in our era. So there are people out there who are using it. I did not start the Order of Necronomicon, but it exists. You’ve been studying the occult for nine years, so you are still a babe. That’s not a bad thing, but what I do observe is that your disposition is slowing you down in making deeper progress.

    I have met a share friendships with many occultists who have used, or still use the Simon Necronomicon, in their work. Most of these people are working class professionals who heard about the Simon Necronomicon by word of mouth or research, and were not familiar with the works of Lovecraft. This was the same in my case. I bring this up since critics to the Simon Necronomicon like to assert that the grimoire was formulated as a snare for Lovecraft fans. In my experience, people onlu learned about Lovecraft after they bought the Simon Necronomicon. Do what you feel and I will follow, but do know that you have not proven your definition of what a grimoire is. I am just asking you to back up something that you stated in your definition of what a grimoire is, Harms even admits that his definition of what a grimoire is-is different. Now you mean to tell me that you have a blog page and you have not made the useful habit of showing some reference to the material that you write? either as a comment or on your blog page? So what you are really doing or have been doing on your magical mystery tour for nine years is just copying and pasting other people’s ideas that seem to be more popular in the Occult community although you have not experienced these concepts for yourself?!!! That’s what it seems like, but uunfortunately this is the same trap that Eastern Mystic warn the followers of!! This same attitude is expressed by your critic of the Simon Necronomicon. You don’t really know the reason why Simon formulated this grimoire. Yet you feel so charged to speak about it because you’ve read Harms thesis, but you are speaking on thing that you were not involved in. That’s not the attitude of an occultist with some years of experience. Second of all, why haven’t you given the system a try. here is something else that I qouted previosuly in one of my blogs, but shows us how other people have used the SN:

    “Interestingly, while surfing the web, I cam across this link

    http://paganpedia.mind-n-magick.com/wiki/index.php?title=Necronomicon

    Notice what it say concerning GateWalking:

    “Distinct practices in the Necronomicon

    Walking the Gates

    The Necronomicon includes a number of astral gates which can be “walked” and explored whereby the practitioner gains tremendous amounts of experience and knowledge, directly from the Gods.

    Priesthood

    After a time practicing with the Necronomicon, some are called to become priests/esses of the Elder Gods or one of gods after experiencing a powerful vision. At times, beings appear almost physically.

    Primordial human emotion

    Some attribute the power of the Necronomicon to it’s use of one of the strongest human emotions – fear. It is also one of the easiest, if not the easiest, to conjure up. ”

    Personally, I am happy that my path is rare. Sometimes people associate themselves with what is popular due to the false ego. Hope you have a good day Mister Harold Roth

    • You haven’t given any examples of people who have actually performed magic using this book, including yourself. This goes to show what I’ve said–that it is not useful as a grimoire.

      “You’ve been studying the occult for nine years, so you are still a babe.”

      First, you should never patronize people. It doesn’t make your argument convincing. It just makes you look arrogant. Second, I said that in nine years *in this business* I had spoken to only one person who was trying to work the Necronomicon. My business involves magic but that is not the limit of my magical practice by a long shot.

  16. Well Harms I hat to be the one to burt your bubble, but the Simmon Necronomicon does contain severeal portions of incantations that were discovered in the Assyrian Tablets. I am not saying that this is proof of the Necronomicon is ancient. I am sure these portions were added or copied into the Tome after Simon researched them. I am saying that the SN does contain many elements of incantations that existed in ancient times. For more info see this post:

    http://warlockasylum.wordpress.com/discovering-the-simon-necronomicons-authenticity-part-1-chaldean-magic/

    Be Well

  17. Hey Harold Roth, I apologise for coming off as arrogant. I must say that i know many people who work with the Tome. Maybe that’s why it has sold over 800,00 copies. I have used the grimoire and have walked the Gates. I have other writers on staff who have done the same. It seems like your stuck on your opinion. I wish you all the best and I doo think that you have a website that is useful guide for those in the Occult Community.

  18. BTW Mioster Harold Roth, I know man who is an Electrician and owns his own business. He has a few serious accounts in the Corporate World. This his experience with the Necronomicon:

    http://warlockasylum.wordpress.com/interview-with-adept-edunpanna/

    Be Well

  19. Warlock, I think everyone knows the gist of what you are saying, but simply because Simon copied some fragments from genuine Assyrian texts translated in the 19th century does NOT make the Simon book the heir to or any part of an ancient tradition nor does it make it “authentic”.

    If I were to lift a few incantations from the Greek Magical Papyri and drop them into my standard Lesser Banshing Ritual of the Pentagram would that make me a genuine part of the Greco-Egyptian tradition?

    I don’t really think there is any argument to be made here. Wiccans and pagans of every stripe are coming to terms with the fact that their religion is a 20th century ‘revival’ started by an elderly naturist: there is no need these days to proclaim your self an Nth generation hereditary witch. To make such claims in the face of conclusive evidence to the contrary tends to make one look a little foolish. Is it such a bad thing to acknowledge that your core text was cobbled together by some longhaired occult scenester in the 70s who probably had an absolute hoot doing it?

    In summation I think a commentator on your own blog says it best: “it just defies logic to argue that a book listed in Simon’s own bibliography in the Necronomicon is proof.”

  20. Thanks Mister Phil. I appreciate your comments. However, I think that being able to perform incantations that were perfromed thousands of years ago is something that not too many grimoires if any can be said to do, but the Simon Necronomicon. i think that critics of the book should admit that as being one positive apsect of the Simon Necronomicon. If you were to include some ancient Greek manuscript in a grimoire you were writing, that could be a very unique thing especailly if you fit it into place with the Greater Mysteries in how it is used, and this is what Simon has done. Yet I must state that if someone was to read this Tome literally than they would miss the point. Just look at all the information I was able to pull out of the Three Seals of MASSHU

    http://warlockasylum.wordpress.com/inner-meanings-of-the-simon-necronomicon-part-mountains-of-masshu/

    And these observations are ones that escape occultist. I understand what you are saying. Yet I think my opinion is still misunderstood. Instead of attacking the system in itself, real understanding of the system can only be obtained by using it for yourself or by communicating with those who have, and this is something that the Dan Harms machine and other critics having come to terms with yet. Imagine me doing a report about Native American Shamanism without interviewing a Native American Shaman, then when a few native American Shamans read my essay they disagree with some of the observations. i would think that everyone here would be able to understand the position that these Shamans have taken and may even look into their side of the story. but if your going to make an observation about a grimoire and then close your ears to those who have used it in an effective way, what does that tell you?

    This is not said to devalue the work of Harms and Gonce because there probably wasn’t many people who were public about their use of the Tome, and if they were it may have been some enstranged individual. However, Harms is the first one to point out the new discoveries and progress of the Sumerian Reconstruction and why modern references paly a role in understanding certain things, yet years after the Necronomicon Files has been put in print he later denies modern observations by Pratitioners of the Tome. He is guilty of the same thing that he advises. Yet I must say that the Necronomicon Files does contain some useful information that is good for the practitioner of the Simon Necronomicon as well. Harms is the only critic of the Simon Necronomicon who has presented somecohesive arguement, which is why I enjoy our debates. Yet I have seen other who sound like completley ignorant in their approach. it is plain and simple if a book contains ancient incantations and similiar methods of magic ritual, then that system should be listed as one with its origin. Just like certain forms of Christianity who which may have excluded some of the first Churches practices due to there own personal beliefs.

    May Enki be with you

  21. Additionally “Doctor Phil” I do not agreee with your comment:

    “Is it such a bad thing to acknowledge that your core text was cobbled together by some longhaired occult scenester in the 70s who probably had an absolute hoot doing it?”

    My history says otherwise:

    http://warlockasylum.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/the-simon-necronomicon-is-the-method-of-self-initiation-into-enochian-magick/

    Take care Doctor Phil


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